Special Edition 3-17-18-18

Special Edition
Saturday, March 17th

Special Edition with Sue Henry March 17 and 18: Information on the upcoming “CASUAL Day,” hosted by the Northeast Regional Cancer Institute to foster a discussion about testing for colon cancer; an interview with Angela Little of the Pennsylvania Family Support Alliance about their efforts to educate the public about child abuse through their Front Porch Project and a discussion with Max Eden, senior fellow on Education Policy at the Manhattan Institute about diversionary programs in schools and their value.


Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Welcome to a special edition. A weekly look at these issues in the news and the personalities shaping the stories special edition is a production of Entercom communications. The views expressed by guests are not necessarily those of Entercom communications staff. Management or sponsors and now here's your host soon Henry. On today's program. Will check in with the group that has made starting conversations about a particular type of cancer. More of an opportunity than in the past will also meet a Pennsylvania group that has partnered with the united way of Wyoming Valley. To teach the community about recognizing signs of child abuse. And reporting it without fear. And we'll speak to a researcher who has been studying the climate in schools regarding discipline each year in March the northeast regional cancer institute gets a casual conversation going. In offices and homes about colon cancer the concept of casual day which stands for colon cancer awareness saves unlimited lives was suggested by a family that had lost a loved one the event is coming up on Thursday march 29 we spoke to Amanda market Johnny community relations coordinator of the northeast regional cancer institute about the importance of casual day. So I am the staff contact for this campaign it's very exciting because I get to work with all of the team captains and all of the business community that. Are behind and support us and and meet it what it is this series the fifteen year of this campaign which is very exciting. It started when it. Mara and Steve back and my Palmer and a brother and sister do well that their mother had openly staged diagnosed. With colon cancers she'd never had a screening prior to signing about the diagnosis and shortly past after. And they decided that they wanted to know family to go through what they went through. And they came up with this event called casual day which stands for colon cancer awareness that saves unlimited adult lives and here we aren't now in the fifteenth year it started with them just. Selling T shirts to family and friends in Martha's kitchen and tying ribbons around T shirts. You announced acting and distributing strict over 8000 individuals throughout northeastern Pennsylvania. And their reaction to what tapping. Overwhelming for I think that. You know they really the the campaign is stayed true to what they'd want it to me which is really to raise the awareness about early detection and screening colon cancer. And we're just happy that they came to the cancer institute and wanted to partner with us and were able to continued to have their mothers legacies. Represent it and share their stories that no one really has to go through what they and is somebody. Who is the point person for all asked how. Many times do you hear from people you know all this started this conversation in my office and it was a lifesaver we. I'm very apt and a lot of the feedback is many people that have been personally affected. I cancer. Whether it's a coworker Fam lean spouse. A sibling or anything like that and and they're very connected with the cop was which is why they decide to be team captain and really have their company in their family and friends. Rally around day and eat that advocates for us. And again we really want everyone to have that casual conversation. And I oftentimes you find out through being a team captain that meteor had a family member that. Had cancer and no one ever spoke about it because as we know probably fifty years ago kids it was not talked about as it is today. And we're just glad that people can't have those casual conversations now so that they can get. What ever they need to do with their health and their family history can get back on line didn't get the best care. And a possible so it's not only in an office setting but it goes with people who are getting involved in there. You know their mama their cousins sees their shared her wet and says Cheney. You know uncle so and so had this yeah snatch some of the teams it's really just family members at a packed someone pass or they're honoring or remembering and. And they really just want to be involved so that it doesn't have to be accompanied it really is just someone that's passionate about. Helping to raise the awareness about colon cancer screening and early detection and and really rallying their friends to take part in it by either. Having that twenty dollar donation for a teacher or the five dollar donation for pan how has the community the business community received you. I did receive does it very well we have a lot. Huge sponsors. That have their names or logos are on the back of art teacher. And there are real the one allowance along with the team captains to continue as a back without their support. We would not be in the fifteen Vieira of this campaign so we're really just want to thank all of our sponsors and the team captains for supporting cancer institute now were in her 26 the air and you know really at the end of the day we would we would want to be put out of business. So that we could find a cure for cancer but until then we will continue to ease the burden of cancer in northeastern Pennsylvania. People are hearing your voice and they think we want to get involved enough how they get involved in those. They can either call our office which is 570941. Point 79 eat for work. Or they can go our website which is cancer and EP dot org the deadline for ordering a teacher has passed but if anyone's interest and they can still participate we have. A number of retail locations throughout the community. And those will be on our website which again is cancer and EP -- work or you can call our office that I sat in 094179. Eat pork. We also have the opportunity to speak to Karen reach track cancer surveillance coordinator. About the trans she sees in cancer statistics. Every year we do an annual report where we look at cancer in northeast Pennsylvania specifically the incidents how many new cases are diagnosed and the mortality how many people die from their disease and we look at the top 23 cancers. The most common cancers and compare ourselves to the rest of the country and then we use that information to direct our program and you know what what are the disparities what are the issues that cancer issues here and EPA. And then again we use that information. To help us decide. What the community I want healthcare practitioners may need to now where'd you get. The data problem the information comes from cancer registries. Cancer is that reportable disease suit that not everybody realizes that in the northeast regional cancer institute actually houses a regional cancer registry that covers. Many. Our hospitals and practices in the area that treats and diagnose cancer so those. Incident cases are died are diagnosed and then sent to the registry. And that information is then reported to the state and they collect a variety of information demographic information. Type of cancer stage of cancer and in the state. Houses that they and they also released. Annual reports it's been awhile since we talk. And I'm sure you have new data to tell us about. And I don't know what you wanna do just an overview of the data what are you seen that because you've been her while what do you see when you look at the stat we're gonna talk today specifically about colon and rectal cancer and that's kits that occurs in a large intestine and the rectum which you know usually is is. The main purpose is to store and then evacuate waste from the body. These cancers. Since 1980 when me and collecting data. Have and hire the incidence has been higher here in northeast Pennsylvania. And the rest of the country as a whole good news is that gap is closing. Back in 2000 we first at our surveillance report we had about a 30% access of colorectal cancer here. Relative to the US. Now that's about 15%. So that's the good news the good news. Also is that nationally color her cancer incidence is decreasing over the last two decades and the same is true here. So that's the good news that we have to report today suing and we're always looking for good news. And we think the reason that we're seeing this decrease is. Possibly better screening. And that's what our casualty awareness program is all about. He's making sure people are aware of the disease. Who happens to flip the signs and symptoms are what they can due to tap that cancer diagnosed early it. They do you have that cancer and possibly even prevented through screening. Screening. We really screen to find that cancer early when treatment is more effective. But in the in the event of colorectal cancer we can often. Prevented from occurring by removing knows precursors to cancer what I mean by that. The pre cancerous or the polyps that had the potential to become cancerous and we can do that through screening. Do you attribute any of this decrease the good news part to your. Efforts to get people to be more open about this discussion. I think so sue I'm you know nationally the same trends are going on. So you know we certainly can't take all of the credit but we really do feel that our efforts over the last fifteen years. To make the community aware to make health care providers aware that it is an issue here. Because we you have more colorectal cancer and the rest of the country I efforts you know medium your you know your help. Other media outlets and it helped us and our our push to make sure that. Everyone knows about this disease how devastating can be because soup went to diagnose this early. The five year survival rate is 90% that means five years after your diagnose. It it's in the local stages. Your line 90% of people are alive. It's that. Stage what we call stage for a distant disease already spread to other parts of the body. That five year survival rate dropped 14%. So we really want to make sure people are getting screened diagnosed early or in preventing cancer from occurring by removing those precursors to talk about the screening there are several options. Not every option is good for every person. A lot of people don't like to talk about it and and that's what the casual. Day effort is all about having that casual conversation with your family. And also with your health care practitioner. We have stool based test that can be done privacy the room home. We have what we call direct visualization. Such as colonoscopy these sick might ask appease and then certainly virtual colonoscopy which is don't want the CT and so there are options. And as I said. You know not one size fits all so top tier health care provider. What's best for you you know your other co morbidity these things that might be going on with you might. Dictate which test is best in terms of family history how crucial is that everything had been talking about so far has been really for average risk individuals. We talk about high risk or an increase in your risk when you have certain cranked Mimi certain criteria one of those would be a family history not only of colon cancer but also polyps. Inflammatory bowel disease such as Crohn's Disease ulcer to colitis and and certainly also hereditary cancers and rooms. Now. About seven to 10% of cancer is due to hereditary cancer center rooms however we talk about a familial. Component. Where families may have. More cancer than others it doesn't necessarily mean it was a hereditary cancer that was passed down from one generation to the other it could just be because it's shared behavior. Shared environments. It let's talk about some of the behavior and environment which me. Increase your chances. Of getting or being diagnosed with colorectal cancer what what happens in that environment first you know we talk about. Environment we we talk about personal environment so each. Age is the biggest risk factor for colorectal cancer 90% of colon cancer is diagnosed after the age of 58. Obesity can be contributing factor sedentary lifestyle. Poor diets diets higher in fast foods. High processed. Meets. Are related to colorectal cancer smoke is associated with colorectal cancer and we have a higher smoking rate here in northeast Pennsylvania. Decreased. Physical activity is another factor mentioned. We talked earlier that you are starting to see a trend towards younger people being diagnosed we talk a little bit about that is that something that we're seeing. Not only locally but nationally in as anybody wondering why this is happening probably about 22 years ago Sam national studies started to show that there was a trend. We are seeing an increase in diagnosed at colorectal cancer being diagnosed in those under the age fifty and we're not looking for that disease in those people unless they're at a high risk. Like we are talked about. So when they aren't being diagnosed they're being diagnosed at a later stage because we're not looking for that disease. That was happening nationally so we decided to take a look at our local data here. And we found missing trend we found. In the last two decades. The rate went from five and a half. Her 100000. Individuals. To seven point six per 100000 individuals they sound like small numbers the next 39%. Increase in those two. Decades so so what's going on we don't really now some of the risk factors that we party talked about we do you have higher prevalence of obesity here. We have a higher prevalence of type two diabetes which is associate it with colorectal cancer. And again poor diets that are associated with colorectal cancer processed food processed meats seemed to be an issue. The bottom line is sue we need more searched to find out what's really going on. The other problem with. As I said these younger individuals are being diagnosed at a later stage and so treatment is not as effective. Says you know some people are saying do we need to change the screening recommendations and again the answer to that is we do need a little bit more research on the last call a study came out of Spain so this is an international problem they're seeing the same thing they're seeing an increasing incidence and caller of cancer in individuals under fifty. And also an increasing polyps. So they're recommending that you know we might wanna start looking at changing our recommendations for screening but I think it's gonna be some more research them before that actually happens. The other thing that we liked patients and now we'd like clinicians to now. Some of these cancers probably almost 40% of them in this younger group. Are being diagnosed him we call that distill colon and rectum so the lower hole one at the end of the call and the rack and so. Clinically and that's something that mania diagnosed and physical exam rectal exam. So what we seek to patients if you're having symptoms you know that are related to colorectal cancer rectal bleeding. Dark stools. Change in bowel habits diarrhea or constipation that persist I narrowing of the stool. Weakness and fatigue that's unexplained unexplained weight loss. All of those things could be related bone cancer so if you're having symptoms bringing cheer clinicians. Attention. And clinicians to keep having young individual presenting with these symptoms they should consider. I'm malignancy as a possible diagnosis it's very easy to think oh well it's it's a pleading hammer right it's your bowel syndrome and more benign conditions. But we would we would encourage clinicians to. Not dismiss it and and really look at it is you know this could be a malignancy and maybe do additional diagnostic test. More information on casual day can be found at cancer and EPA dot org you are listening to special addition on Entercom communications. You're listening to special edition on intercom communications. Hosted by sue Henry. We've domino on public and watched an adult becomes frustrated with the child sometimes it becomes a bit uncomfortable and we wonder if we should say or do something that situation is the basis for the front porch project. Administered by the Pennsylvania family support alliance. Whose mission is to empower ordinary citizens to do the right paying. In the event of seeing something they feel is wrong the group offered training recently in Wilkes-Barre in partnership with the united way of planning valley. We spoke about the work of the Pennsylvania family support alliance with its CEO. Angelo little. PF SA is one of the best kept secrets in Pennsylvania were all about protecting children from abuse. And we do that by helping parents be the best parents they can teacher education and support. We help mandated reporters of suspected child abuse know what child abuse is how it would dent defiant how to properly reported. And then there really cool thing we're here to talk about today is how to help community members play a role in keeping Pennsylvania's kids safe and. Walk through little this because some people probably hear what you have to say and they think to themselves. Why do you parents need to be educated hiring is my kids and nobody told me so why does the climate different. As we speak today and 2018 what's happening to people may not understand. There's been a lot of shifts in kind of the paradigm of parenting. He know I'm I'm pushing my mid fifties now and and while I know that's probably hard for you don't imagine it's it's unbelievable yeah that's what I thought you're gonna say good answer. The tree is back in the day you know I was raised with kind of the philosophy of to be seen and not hurt. And we have become much more fluid in our philosophy around parenting in today's times where. You know it's much more participatory. It's much more democratic with a lot of parents. And the truth is there are different levels and different types of stress her so that impact parents today not to say that it was ever easy. But it's a different world and just. You know social media influences. Bullying in schools everything from road rage you name it. All of this coming out our kids and at our parents changes the day outs. And I think that there has been a move to it accept that premise. That. Things are changing what thinks some of the things are happening in society today. That a change and I just talked about like the broad based funds but can you put up some some examples for people. That just don't get Ellen what is different and what is happening today in parenting I'm thinking. That oftentimes it may be. Just the the basic survival stuff like trying to put food on the table and clothes to kids and especially where we live in landing now I know you work with the united way her. And there's a lot of poverty and challenge her. That's one of the things we've loved and partnering with the united way they are very clear. Associations. Positive correlations between poverty. Strasser and a family. Health issues. End. The incidence of both domestic violence and child appease. You know the reality is we live in a very very fast paced world we just do. A lot of kids want the ipads they want the iphones they want the screen time. All of that makes our communication. Both with each other from adult to adult and especially adult to child. Very different from how it wants wise so it's important that we realize that shift it's important that we. Realized that in a day and age where we like things in short bites of tweets send and social media post. And where we embrace things like online training. There is really no replacement for people getting together and sharing their experience. Which means for groups like Pennsylvania famine support alliance. The philosophy around our support and education programs or that he know we're gonna share the experience together and while there are parenting curriculums. The truth is we know it's not an easy. And everyone's gonna say while you got the tiger by the tail it's not like that it's a trial any air it's an adjust. Throughout that process all parents need support. Now we know we're now more than ever a lot of things are brought to the surface but at the same time I think it. With social media people feel somehow less humanly. Connect to it and they try to say. I don't want again and all for penny in the stuff 'cause they're kind of used to. That there's something in between them and the other person so when they see child abuse. Why should they get involved low let's just talk about people. Who see things in the supermarket in our out of the bus stop or something like that how should they handle that without. Too much training what should they do. Well that's actually part of what we've been offering in partnership through the united way here in the Wyoming Valley. It's a training program called the front porch project which is sponsored by Pennsylvania family support alliance and offered statewide it's about helping community members. And part of what we have to recognize is that there are barriers to white people don't get involved in some very real. Very legitimate concerns around that all we have to do however is remind one another that. In one year alone the last year we have statistics for 46 children in Pennsylvania were killed 4416. Were victims of child abuse. So these your kids to. By and large are not going to be in a position where they can save themselves. Hank. There it's gonna require action on the part of an adult. To call child line which we highly recommend if you suspect child abuse that number's 8093203. Country. If to realize that children. Have only one chance. Of having their lives be better and that's if there is an adult. That intervenes and alerts folks that there is a concern here so that's what people should get involved. We believe most people want tail. But we're not born intrinsically knowing how to do this and it's a very frightening things sometimes. So through education of community members with programs like the front porch project we can teach people very concrete ways to intervene. And look out for the safety and wellbeing of a child. And sometimes at the same time supporting the parent or the family. Alan does that kind of training Tate and what is the crux of the training. The crux of the training. Is really wrapped into about a six hour day it brings together folks who kind of explore their own. Thoughts and experiences. About parenting. It there's no one right and troop proper way. To intervene when you think something isn't quite right. I would bet most of us skin recount times we've been at the urge restore. And seeing an interaction between a parent a child that made the turn our necks stand up. Are made us cringe and so we ducked down another I'll 'cause we just don't know what to do. And in truth there are things you can do to. On and help the parent not feel judged and maybe make things a little easier for the child so we're talking about some small simple steps. And that leads me really to I think an important point for listeners to hear. There's somewhere along the line we kind of lost her civility a little bit in the society. We used our kind of look out for each other hence the name the front porch. You know when I was growing up neighbors knew what I was doing before my bicycle ever hit the driveway my mom could have known what I was doing. We've lost a lot of that. And the way to get that back is the same when we lost it by small little steps to change. And so that's what we try to do at Pennsylvania feel the support alliance which try to help people learn skills. That they can use then within their own comfort zone to try to keep and I now for kids and to say you know what. Maybe not my biological child not my adopted child. But every kid that I lay eyes on I have some former responsibility too because I'm an adult and I'm a member of this community and of the state. And we think about how that might be able to break. A really unfortunate and long standing cycle within a family dynamic because there's reasons why people do what they do. And it may be based upon. Their own previous experience hands may mean the reason quiet they do what they do to their children all all a lot of us. No that's just not ready absolutely end. Sometimes it's a matter of poor impulse control sometimes it's a matter of passing on what you've been exposed to sometimes it's as basic as. Because I can. And we have to acknowledge too that especially when you're talking about some of the very horrific cases of child abuse and neglect in the state. There is an element that's called evil that you can't really dismiss when you look at some of us. And you look at the number of folks who work in the school system. Or Cymer religious institutions. And how they have. Really not respected care are cherished for the children they were responsible for. And that falls into the category of 'cause I couldn't. And what we have to say is society is. Mean he can't we're not gonna Lal that is not acceptable what are you seeing in terms of a change and what are your. Your hopes for the future dreams for what you do well I think we've had. Significant change post's Jerry sandusky and the state. And that was really. The light switch that flipped much like 9/11 did for our homeland security and don't think we're ever gonna go back to up a creek. Jerry sandusky time with her child welfare systems so we've had a lot of changes in strengthening the lawn closing some loopholes. The pendulum intends to go from one and it's to the next and it is indeed kind of crashing through the the wall on the opposite end now. Where folks are realized that it's not okay to turn a blind guy especially if you're a professional. Considered a mandated reporter in the state. Now remember the day when we would have never thought to charge someone with failure to report child abuse. And people need to hear today it's no joke. You have a high likelihood high probability of being charged if you were aware of child abuse and you don't make a report. So we have people who are. You know of course are some level of motivation out of concern for kids. But there's also heightened concern about liability and risk and professional standing and and all of those things. So I think people are taking this matter a little more seriously. People are. Receiving training. With a different level of interest in making sure they really understand and focus. And I think our law enforcement. In the state is is obviously right in line with that. And we don't hesitate anymore when when folks aren't doing what they need to do for kids so. It's about and making everyone aware it's about encouraging parents to do little better with kids. Keep benign out. When they tell you they've been harmed believe them. If we can say that once today let's say it 5000 times the child discloses abuse to you believe them and act accordingly. So it's really about parents it's about professionals and volunteers and it's about the community at large we all need to kind of you know would do this together and and keep an eye on kids. You do bring up something that I think is significant in the past when a lot of these kids would go to an authority figure. And their you know we've seen it in the news across the country and in Pennsylvania. There would be that tendency for them to be. Dismissed stern attempt to silence on because. That person is so powerful in the community or who could possibly believe that do you see a change in those little people being believed. I absolutely see that coming I I don't know that were completely the area by any means but I think that we've made progress with that. And I think the more high profile cases we have as disheartening as they are. You know it it was hard to look at Jerry sandusky and say therein lies a monster but have we seen a greater monster than man in terms of preying on kids. If you look at the US gymnastics indoctrinated her you know again here's someone in a position of trust in the position of power over kids. And there were kids who testified now Zhong adolescents saying I told my parents they didn't believe me. I can only imagine how those parents today feel after hearing first Tiant. The magnitude of what happened in the situation. So I think when we all through the media. An experience that and see how that plays out. 95 her granddaughter. And I am telling you. She ever utters a word to me that with anyone she feels not safe. I will act immediately and I would hope anyone around her wallet and I hope that we all do that for kids what they say we must believe. Is there anything else we need to know. Well I think what we really wanna let folks know about his. Where right around the corner for April which is child abuse prevention month. Come on April forest. Harrisburg the capital Pennsylvania will be turning blue for kids. And for the prevention of therapies and we hope that every community in Pennsylvania including those in the Wyoming Valley would join us. There will be an outstanding event at the capitol. Marking the introduction of child abuse prevention month also those children. Who sadly lost their lives as a result of abuse and those who. Or abuse victims. In the last year in Pennsylvania so there'll be an awards ceremony. For some good news which is. Community members professionals and a member of the media. Who are considered blue ribbon champions for safe kids so that's our big campaign PF SA each year blue ribbon champions for safe kids. Will be acknowledging those folks have gone above and beyond and as a result. Kids in Pennsylvania in their neighborhoods in their communities are more safe. We also encourage people to visit our website PA blue ribbon champion dot org to get blue ribbon pins if they'd like. We encourage people to Wear blue. And really do their small part in their neighborhoods. To recognize child abuse prevention month and to take action to help be a part of the solution. Angela little is president and CEO. Of Pennsylvania family support alliance. You are listening to special addition on Entercom communications. You were listening to special edition on intercom communications. Hosted by sue him ring. Beat Parkland Florida school shooting happened a little more than a month ago and the investigation. Into how it happened. Has led to discussions on guns CD. And the shooter managed to avoid a criminal record. And was able to buy a gun under the microscope is a diversion program that park when used in conjunction with the Broward county sheriff's office. That reduce the amount of reportable infractions including drug use and assaults we spoke recently to Max Eden senior fellow on education policy at the Manhattan institute about alternative discipline in schools. Has survived by key issue for the past couple years has been schooled the plan in general and the massive shift in the approach to it that's taken place over the past two years largely under coercion by the Obama Department of Education. The theory was that traditional systems you know clear rules clear consequences if you do something you get. Suspended or expelled referred to the police. That that was unfair and and harming the cute and so with the new ways should be too. Not to spend not expelled not refer to the police. And the idea being if we can get the statistics down somehow everything will become better for these could bid but it. You know when you look at it is typical cruise and you ask yourselves too how would that at all of these. Red flags got raised the but never got reached the point where he got the police's radar. Part of the answer was the Broward County. Explicitly shifted to keep things off the police's radar as part of this larger chipped discipline I've been examining. Let's take talk about a year research into that to Max out what was happening. From. Your. Look at this what what was going on in terms of discipline and the police have arrest records etc. it's better here I mean. So I think the big advocates who was who was dramatically overstated greater than the argument was that. The court relation between suspensions and expulsions. Were somehow related to the bad outcomes of students we saw later about caused them rather than both being reflective of of that underlying behavior. So under that assumption the idea was if you couldn't stop you know punishing kids during bad thing if it at all. Get better but what I'm seeing across the country at the lower levels is. That win students don't think that there are rules anymore and today is their behavior deteriorates but but more importantly. What adults in the room faced pressure to keep that his statistics down. They react at all sort of perverse ways they they hide the evidence they ignore evidence that don't report things up to the gym they used to. Because instead of keeping safety first as they go about implementing these policies. They're keeping with its statistics first over that. OK I have to ask you do about the impetus to hide the statistics. It is it financial. Yeah I mean it's it's it's it's a couple things it's a wrap of action from above and in a promise to benefit from from within and around. Right so with that school districts across the country were told. That the federal government might come after you if you're great search you are so there's there's a fear that's driving at. But there's also you know ambitions that are driving it because if you get these rates down you get nice stories in the press. That you're superintendent grunts seeing you get your rest down by. You know no longer arresting kids for very serious things you can get an invitation to the White House to get congratulated her how dramatically improved. School policy so. These there's there's a comparative at stake here that are both working to try to depressed statistics which unfortunately. Can prevent records that should exist from actually mr. Aaron maxim. I live in an area. Where we had. One of the worst. Judicial scandals. In history of the kids for cash. Scandal and I don't know how familiar you wire with that in your research that day and I thought Eric and I hippie it to although some gonna give you. The shortest rears and possible but I want it to feature. All of the elements of how it happened. In the aftermath of the Columbine shootings in ninth 1999. Many schools across the country. Embraced. A policy. Of zero tolerance. In other words no matter what ever act to school if it was a nail file. I saw a boy scout knife whatever. You there were consequences for that and there were judges here where we live in loser and counting. Who. Used to the Specter of zero tolerance. To send many many many. Juveniles. To juvenile detention centers there was a girl here who made a MySpace and a sounds old hurt. Principal she locked. Up there were kids that we're not rain and they were taken away in shackles somebody deep faced a stop sign at setter at center. Did you hear use that. As. A technique to actually feather than Nass some local people that interest financial interest. In the early in the institutions where were some of these kids were sent. So for us when we saw. These kinds of diversion programs like the ones used on Anbar county. Actually come into play where we live we embrace them because so many kids have been sent away to. To prison. As she her and and we not that there was a better way so I just when you know. Oftentimes when you have a situation like column by and there is an over correction. And now it seems to be in in in our view me be that this. Has so Vasily added fuel to the other side I. Yeah no I wave I couldn't agree more I think. Everything that you said is there are also things that have agreed assertion is true and there was a major over correction because. All the public sort of the incentives were were shifted both by federal policy and by public fear and by pressure. And so rather than act kind of responsibly with an eye toward the students in front of them. You have adults react and all of these kind of self serving ways and this is where the the impetus further discipline reforms came from the impetus between beyond broad reforms impetus behind. The Obama administration's actions. It all came from a very very good place trying to correct to it was an over correction. But the fear is kind of where we're on the flip side of that coin. By putting in similar pressures. And governments and kind of for activists. That we're doing the same thing except the other way. And so that kind of what I've been doing for the passable years has been looking into this and trying to document warning signs. That we might have turned kind of zero tolerance. In zero trust of the teachers and principals to handle things the right way. You have in your research Max a place. Where this is being handled properly. Using that what you now. To my mind that the most promising that plays through this is in Chicago. Because Chicago's unique amongst major school districts and that it has administered consistent school climate survey ever year and has not changed the question. In other districts where they've had views they changed the questions to you can't actually know. You know how many students from one year to an act actually feel safe and welcome and respected. If you can know those things it's then you can properly balance trying to decrease an over reliance on punishment. With maintaining school safety and school order. Had a positive school culture but if you if you don't have an eye on both of those metrics. There's a big risk of an over correction. Getting applauded for reducing suspensions are producing around. Even if that means schools are gonna let's say so. It's school districts can have and I have both I think that there's a real shot that this can be done very well and very responsibly. But unfortunately. We have. Statistic for suspensions everywhere we have in a student and teacher survey data and very few places. OK so what would really make this a more consistent buzz out long term data that that shows. I'm producing evidence. That something it is working rain. Yeah no I mean if if if you have a school and the suspensions go down by by 20% over three years. That is either good or bad depending on weather just as many Pittsfield based more kids feel safer or fewer it's still safe and and let you know that you can't know the policy is succeeding but if you can know that and it you can watch and monitor these things than that you can do so very responsible. Aren't there any kind of things going on in in as the school infants and localities were infrastructure her Max school infrastructure. That make students feel safer and doesn't make them feel like there are going to the penitentiary for the day at all. It's all really about. That that is the culture that says between principals and teachers. If principal and teachers can prevent it can present a united and support of frog skins. Pick up on that they've become part of it and that they're becomes. In it's Rita core about one's school. That worry you both ways both the zero tolerance where it and what do publish your trust way is. You know in an zero tolerance setting the teachers don't actually have the discretion or the judgment to move you know deal with the kids is that human beings that are front of them. But in bureau exclusions here trust to a the teacher quite frankly. Often can't even some of the kids that talked the principal advocate that principals and teachers against each. So they're really the key thing isn't it an infrastructure it's the relationships between the adults and the questions we should be asking is. And how we improve those relationships that cultural level but it filtered down advocates. A woman on yesterday Max who suggested. The mediation process should be introduced into schools so that tether is an individual in the middle. Of the administration. And the students what think about that as an idea. Yeah no I'm I'm I'm supportive of that intense period of the problem that I see quite frequently is that. You know ones who was taken away from teachers and other supports are really set up. And the reason why we see that happening is because we see this happening as an explicit attempt to to lower indicators of punishment. But if you know if the policy were let's just add more support them and had more adults you can try to pick a more holistic view of address the root causes and and focus on training the adults with extra extra techniques and putting extra adults with a with a broader perspective in the room. I think at the very positive steps along is you know the keys school culture. Not this distance. You and I think that did and now we hear the salon Macs now in the current climate that we live in. There seems to be no respite for kids from certain things and this has to do with the Internet FaceBook. Snapped chat whatever but how couldn't. I don't know that it seems to me that this. This this individual. Nick I hate saying his name let's just say this individual. He left a pretty big electronic footprints. A cross the idea in her neck and I'm wondering what else can be done to let kids know a way. To also report that if they see it because they may often see it when adults don't. Yeah I mean do that the key is that that the feel comfortable reporting to the adults that they would feel confident that it also do something about it. You know what can can litigate the particulars of his disciplinary record it and the the you know the policies before the policies after and to meet that it's a clear picture but the bigger problem is. How was it that that this stuff never made its way to the teachers or if it did how was it that it never made its way from the teachers to police. And what I fear. And hopefully more investigation rules so well either alleviated or or confirm this sphere. Is that there might have been a culture amongst adults to look at some social media we don't really need to touch that because that's not our responsibility to keep track but it. Some schools do some schools don't some schools take that's a very very seriously some schools wash their hands. And I think it's something of that. You know kitchen feel comfortable that they put it on the teachers radar. Double doubles actually means something they want to speak paddling we'll be doing something useful productive we'll be seeing them again thanks affect. Personally what did the thing is to gat. The things on the radar and take them seriously. Despite the fact that it may have. Adverse financial consequence ran I mean that money can't be the end all be all the stuff that's right. Note safety has to be first and and you know we should give adults. Who who who care who devoted their lives to teaching kids. The discretion to do what's right we shouldn't see. We shouldn't prejudiced them either to punish automatically or to be announced keep shy away from public and automatically we should simply. Let these adults do what they think is right given and given what they're presented side by the student. Arrington of the timeout we I have been told by listeners that the documentary piece that was done. About the judicial system here that punished a lot of juveniles in some very unfortunate ways. The kids are cash documentary is unknown YouTube for free so it if you have a chair sort of fit yes I wish to reduce some looking at that in a few and and you know get back to me with your impressions of of what you saw about that because I think this thing did whipsaw between column by and then now. It in an amazing plan mean you always have an overreaction. And and we may be. He opposite of what happened post column by and right now so. And and and my hope is that we don't we don't re over react you know it. My hope is that we have we rather than try to try to prescribe. Or threaten or bribe. Schools to do one thing or the other that that we realize that. Can have the kind of the popular responses cuter horrors of one stripper and other can often. Do you more harm than good when they take away teacher discretion and judgment. Max Eden is a senior fellow on education policy at the Manhattan institute. He spoke to us about diversion programs in schools are listening to special edition on Entercom communications. Thanks for listening to special edition. A weekly look at these issues in the news and the personalities shaping the stories.