Max Eden Manhattan Institute

Newsmaker Interviews
Wednesday, March 7th

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Other things as well obviously many have had their sage. About does schools' safety in the aftermath of this shooting. In a Parkland Florida and Nicholas Crusoe was the shooter. And they're Christians being asked about what what can be done in the future and I'm looking. Backwards. To see if there's anything that can be done. Differently and this is a Max Eden he is a senior fellow on education policy. At the Manhattan institute Max it's a pleasure to allow community WAOK good morning. Departing epic rhetoric it's our pleasure now let's talk about says what. You do Max com as a senior fellow on on education policy what are you looking at most of the time. Yes so my like key issue for the past couple years has been schooled this plan in general and the massive shift in the approach to it that's taken place over the past two years largely under coercion by the Obama Department of Education. The theory was that traditional systems you know clear rules clear consequences if you do something you get suspended or expelled referred to the police. That that was unfair and an harming the cute and so with the new ways should be to not suspend not expelled not refer to the police. And the idea being if we can get these statistics down somehow everything will become better for these tickets but it. You know when you look at his physical cruise and you pasture so to how would that at all these. Red flags got raised at that never got reached the point where he got the police's radar. Part of the answer was the Broward County. Explicitly shifted to keep things off the police's radar as part of this larger chipped discipline I've been examining. Let's take talk about a year research into that to Max what was happening. From. Europe. Look at this what what was going on in terms of a discipline the police have arrest records etc. it's better. Yeah I mean so I think the big. The McCain was it was dramatically overstated greater than the argument was that. The poor relation between suspensions and expulsions. Were somehow related to the bad outcomes of students so later about caused them rather than both being reflective of of that underlying behavior. So under that assumption the idea was if you can step you know punishing kids during bad thing if it will halt. Get better but. What I'm seeing across the country at the lower levels is. That win students don't think that there are rules anymore as days their behavior deteriorates but but more importantly it. What adults in the room faced pressure to keep that his statistics down. They react at all sort of perverse ways they they hide the evidence they ignore evidence that don't report things up to the gym they used to help. Because instead of keeping safety first as they go about implementing these policies. They're keeping with its statistics first over that. OK I have to ask you do about the impetus to hide the statistics. It is it financial. Yep I mean it's it's it's it's a couple things that the threat of action from above and it. You know promised the benefit from from within and around. Right so that the school districts across the country were told. That the federal government might come after you if you're great search you are so there's there's a fear that striving yet. But there's also you know ambitions that are driving it because if you get these rates down you get nice stories in the press. As your superintendent runs seed you get your breasts down by. You know no longer arresting kids for very serious things you can get an invitation to the White House to get congratulated her how dramatically improved. School policies so. He's there's there's the comparative at stake here that are both working that you try to depressed statistics which unfortunately. Can prevent records that should exist from actually mr. Aaron Max I am I live in an area. Where we had. One of the worst. Judicial scandals. In history the kids for cash. Scandal and I don't know how familiar you are with that in your research backed it can I doubt very and I hippie it to although some gonna give you. The shortest version possible but I want it to feature. All of the elements of how it happened. In the aftermath of the column nine shootings in ninth 1999. Many schools across the country. Embraced. A policy. A zero tolerance. In other words no matter what ever act to school if it was a nail file. I saw a boy scout knife whatever. You there were consequences for that and there were judges here where we live in Lucerne county. Who. Used to the Specter of zero tolerance. To send many many many. Juveniles. To juvenile detention centers there was a girl here who made a MySpace and a sounds old hurt. School principal she locked. Up. There were kids that we're not rain and they were taken away in shackles somebody deep faced a stop sign at setter at center. The judges here use that. As. A technique to actually feather the NASA. Some local people that interest financial interest. In the early in the institutions where it were some of these kids were sent. So for us when we saw. These kinds of diversion programs like the ones used down in Broward County. Actually come into play where we live we embrace them because so many kids have been sent away to. To prison. As she her and the and we thought that there was a better way so I just when you know. Oftentimes when you have a situation like column by and there is an over correction. And now it seems to be in in in our view may be that this. Has so vacillated a fuel to the other side I. Yeah no way I tape I couldn't agree more I think that. Everything that you said is there are also things that I agree assertion is true there was a major over correction because. All of them all the sudden the incentives were were shifted both by federal policy and by public fear and by pressure. And so rather than act kind of responsibly with an eye toward the students in front of them. You have adults react at all these kind of self serving ways and this is where the the impetus for the discipline reforms came from the impetus between John Breaux to form the impetus behind. The Obama administration's actions. It all came from a very very good place trying to correct tools and over correction. But the fear is kind of where we're on the flip side of that coin. By putting in similar pressures. And governments and kind of for activists. That we're doing the same thing except the other way. And so that kind of what I've been doing for the past couple years has been looking into this and trying to document warning signs. That we might have turned kind of zero tolerance. In zero trust of the teachers and principals to handle things the right way. You have in your research Max a place. Where this is being handled properly. Using that what you now. Yes so to my mind that the most promising that place through this is in Chicago. Because Chicago's unique about a major school districts in that it. Has administered consistent school climate survey ever year and has not changed the question. In other districts where they've had the news. They changed the questions you can't actually know you know how many students from one year to an act actually feels safe and welcome and respected. If you can know those things it's then you can properly balance trying to decrease an over reliance on punishment. With maintaining school safety and school order. Had a positive school culture but if you if you don't have an eye on both of those metrics there's a big risk of an over correction. Getting applauded for reducing suspensions are reducing arrests. Even if that means schools are gonna let's say so. It's school districts can have and I have both I think that there's a real shot that this can be done very well and very responsibly. But unfortunately. We have. Statistics for suspensions everywhere we have in a student and teacher survey data and very few places. OK so what would really make this a more consistent buzz out long term data that's that shows. I'm producing evidence. That something it is working rain. Yeah no I mean if if if you have a school and the suspensions go down by about 20% over three years. That is either good or bad depending on weather just as many kids skills base more it feels safer or cure its feel safe and and let you know that you can't know the policies succeed but if you can know that and it you can watch and monitor these things than that you can do so very responsible. Aren't there any kind of things going on in in as the school imposed Allen and when he's sort infrastructure Max school infrastructure. That make students feel safer and doesn't make them feel like there are going to the penitentiary for the day. It's all it's all really about. That is the culture that says between principals and teachers. If principal and teachers can prevent it can present a united and support of frog skins. Pick up on that they become part of it and that they're becomes. In and esprit de corps about one's school. The worries both ways both of his zero tolerance weigh in and what do Coke zero trust way is. You know and as your tolerance setting the teachers don't actually have the discretion or the judgment to you know deal with the kids is that human beings that are front of them. But in the bureau exclusions your trust to say. The teachers quite frankly. Often can't even from the kids that talked the principal advocate that principals and teachers against each. So they're really the key thing is and isn't infrastructure it's the relationships between the adults in the questions we should be asking is. And how we improve those relationships that culture of level but a filter down to the kids. A woman on yesterday Max who suggested. The mediation process should be introduced in two schools so that tether is an individual in the middle. Of the administration. And the students what to think about that as an idea. Yeah no I'm I'm I'm supportive of that intense period of the problem that I see quite frequently is that. You know 12 was taken away from teachers but other supports are really set up. And for the reason why we see that happening is because we see this happening as an explicit attempt to to lower indicators of punishment. But if you know if the policy were. Let's just add more support than an add more adults you can try to pick a more holistic view and addressed the root causes and and focus on training the adults with extra extra techniques and putting extra adults with a with a broader perspective in the room. I think it's a very positive steps along is you know the key is school culture. Not the states. You and I think that did and now we hear the saw Max now in the current climate that we live and there seems to be no respite for kids from certain things and this has to do with the Internet FaceBook. Snap chat whatever but how couldn't. I don't know that it seems to me that this. This this individual. Nick I hate saying his name let's just say this individual. He left a pretty big electronic footprint. A cross the idea in her neck and I'm wondering what else can be done to let kids know of way. To also report that if they see it because they may often see it when adults don't. Yeah I mean that they are the key is that that the feel comfortable reporting to the adults that they would feel confident that could also do something about it. You know what can can litigate the particulars of his disciplinary record and the you know the policies of the for the policies after and to meet that it's a clear picture but the bigger problem is. How was it that that this stuff never made its way to the teachers support it did how was it that it never made its way from the teachers to police. And what I fear. And hopefully more investigation rules both or either alleviated or or confirm this sphere. Is that there might have been a culture amongst adults to look at some social media we don't really need to touch that because that's not our responsibility to keep track but it. Some schools do some schools don't some schools take that stuff very very seriously some schools wash their hands of it. And I think it's something of that. You know kitchen feel comfortable that they put it on the teachers radar. That will that hold actually means something they want to speed paddling we'll be doing something useful productive will be seeing them again thanks affect. I personally what did the thing is to get the things on the radar and take them seriously. Despite the fact that it may have. Adverse financial consequence ram in that money can't be the and on beyond the stuff Max right. No safety has to be first and and you know we should give adults. Who who who care who have devoted their lives to teaching kids. The discretion to do what's right we shouldn't see. We shouldn't prejudiced them either to punish automatically or to be announced keep shy away from punishment automatically we should simply. Let these adults do what they think that's right given given what they're presented by by the students. Arrington at the time that we I have been told by listeners that the documentary piece that was done. About the judicial system here that punished a lot of juveniles in some very unfortunate ways. The kids are cash documentary is unknown YouTube for free so it if you have a chance to look seriously yes I wish she would do some looking at that in a few one and you know get back to me with your impressions of of what you saw about that because I think this thing did whipsawed between column by and in now. It in an amazing plan mean you always have an overreaction and and we may be. In in the opposite of what happened post column by and right now. And and and my hope is that we don't we don't re over react to them. My hope is that we've we've rather than try to try to prescribes. Or threaten or bribe the schools to do one thing or the other that that we realize that. Can have the kind of the popular responses cuter horrors of one's stripper and other an optimist. Do you more harm than good Wednesday take away teacher discretion and judgment. Max Eden is a senior fellow on educational policy at the Manhattan institute Max thanks again ershad left. Just think we have 51023 W I'll be EC. You seat the problem hearing might not the only one that sees the problem here. We go from one extreme to the other we go from zero tolerance to. And untold tolerance. We need to. Again look at all sides of these issues so that we can make. The best decisions and if that that the people down and Broward County. Were swayed by the dollar. That's not good either OK we know. That there is research that shows that some of these diversion programs are very successful we know that in fact I'm pride and I have to and cut down two via. Good on today at ground zero there at the courthouse again and talk to all the people involved. In these diversion programs locally and they might be able to paint an entirely different picture. The although this does look like an institutional failure of epic proportions on the part of a lot of different people. And I don't think that our program our diversion programs are I don't think there is lenient. As the ones in Broward County about empowering and I have to go down there and find out gray that's a good thing for me to do. Lord only knows my dance card has been light this week wrecked house thanks to good on the mic trouble but we checked the break here WLK because it is tenth when he former eBay if you talk about this issue. I am more than happy. To hear what you have to say like I said these these programs are a foot in Lucerne county I can tell you. Because I see them and sometimes they can spear. I juvenile from a criminal record but if Dave. Are being used in a way that's not correct we also need to know about so it's 1025. If you are talk about this great also reported to me about the snowstorm because I forgot that we were having in it and now I remembered so if you know anything. Send me attacks on me now while what it looks like where you are sent me text now when mommy know it looks like where you are does anybody have one or two inches of snow yet. 570883. 0098. Or 180437. 0098. This my friends is WI okay. You wouldn't put a square peg in a round hole so why would you deploy a traditional firewall in the modern decentralized network firewalls have new requirements for business is leveraging SaaS based applications and public cloud platforms like a WS Asher and Google cloud we're in the cloud generation now so your firewalls have to be engineered to fit right and re claiming your club network triumph barracuda clone generation network current application firewall free at barracuda dot com slash firewalls. Have you written a book learn how to get it published and potentially sold online and that bookstores cop page publishing now for your free book publishing get 804704833. I met someone. 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From one direction to the other nine cent. Weather and the other saddle talked about the wilkes-barre about school problems or half an hour away from the cash clocked contest on W while Kate. It's cheesy music Wednesday with our automotive theme so far not much happening and she Cheney or relaxed now and that's what I know for sure because I got. Chairs please stay tuned. Attention diabetics do your testing supplies delivered to your home three delivery and a three meter upgrade called the US medical supply 804307923. In Pennsylvania if your child is under twenty years old act now to take legal action for their birth injury. Medical negligence during an emergency C section or difficult delivery can cause. Sarah broke palsy or other serious conditions. The results are a lifetime of financial and emotional strain on your family platoon aloft. Firm will evaluate your case and get answers. Now it's worth a car it's once the clinic call 5708259000. Org click get lit tunnel law dot com. 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That is a sign that Apollo was singing yesterday isn't just. It. Well. There eight people were just lowering the Wal-Mart I wonder why Allen and the lines were crazy up on in the normally they're nuts but they're like almost the instant it really yet and I thought well I. It is good time ago insulin for the dogs I guess I'll do that wasn't his every person went to the pharmacy in the lake on. Yeah you can't get a cup drop over there a by the land a whole car and stuff is check me out as a match here in the pharmacy super high here sustain and is certainly in line and this is Wal-Mart so kind of makes cents. Removes herself from the line such eating chicken wings. Obviously what did you get that way have you been hit you can't meet Sheikh ten minutes. Just not a chicken wings. She's being chicken wings in the store in line for medicine did she pay for. The where they come down because the line very blonde she is quite under it. I should complained many got a Nike Gatorade or something. Harry. Nothing happening and old forge a lot now about that I think these meanness snow last but it looks like there's not a flake panel forge. You're jokes there and I just leave it at their free off. I got a picture from you moody full Baylor easily. Up in fleet though with little bit of snow but nothing you can handle if you live and sleep now because you're used its Samir a picture of Michigan. Where there's 32 inches of snow and that's pretty good. 5708830098180437009. Eighths it's at 1036. Looks very about school problems. Yes very enjoyed your less to lose their view. The guy there that put them about bullying. But. Didn't carry on very much for he's got the right idea there. You know you you know me fairly well which may not know that I didn't years and years to abuse counseling. From the crowd was in college and I would be at camp counselor. For the first camps during the summer. To. Actually used leadership and churches. And so laden. And that's just had to run moved the people who are talking suicide. Okay. And if you have the time give you three little short stories. Wu I was in the summer camps. Seeing him at the time in the future. Junior guys. And the fourteenth. In that age. And the one. Kid. Lou it's been out of shape and put it mildly there was plenty of reason but. And all of them one day he attacks another pit. And you've got to understand it then what's gone the boy who did the attacking. Whose terms are being divorced. And he was getting bounced around from one to the other and that made him totally. You know. Well as rocker. Pacific these facilities but the boosting the kid he attacks. Was one who had lost his parents in the auto accidents and okay. We'll have adjusted to it and was living with other relatives. Do you think about what where their mind going you know he's got a problem. He looks really cute who should've the problems same problem. But didn't because he has adjusted to it and eat that's the one he attacked. Now happened that I was the only male character at that particular risk session. And tools like clamping down he relaxed is that the only one attention. Okay. Another case so the we'll work in the Massachusetts. Sweet young girl of sixteen. Always bubbly laugh and so on all of sudden there was I don't care we know well. And so. Movies kids didn't have their own transportation and so the drivable. Hole Sunday night after the year's meeting. And so this particular week I made sure it took her own blasts. So like Jim from the warehouse size is okay what's going on and she started ball. And it turned out in this case the mother was a problem. She's she and older sisters and older sisters assumed she got a chance to get out of the house less. Went away to college dorms in college. She wanted nothing to do with. And gotten over aggressive mother and so this poor girl from Alaska oil and apparently got all the grief. And I just calm down. And things seem to be okay for a while but two weeks later I mean the meeting. You youth counselors meeting that the church and major church. And that period. And also get tapped on the shoulder and the woman run in the program since you've got a visitor. I go well in the hallway and this year. Obviously had been crying and she'd attempted suicide. With pills. And remember that I showed concern. And Cayman me. And I sucker in the car ran into another church several miles away with the ministers are meeting. And got a hold of the minister. And then turned her over to him. And thank god she's still alive today. And the interestingly enough. Much or little it was still it was given to. Taking children in. The difficult children and working with them. That's awesome and I'm glad that it worked out that way that's a great ending to that story. And and the mother recently Longwell more reason several years ago. And this is the during the social media period. It was a beautiful young lady is that they knew. Then new and she went to school. In local here. And apparently. Some guy who was. The quote boyfriend of another girl. Took an interest in here. Okay. Well the other girl. Gathered a group of her friends and started to attack additionally. The last liver she's attempted suicide four times. And who.