Author Annie Jacobsen with Sue Henry

Newsmaker Interviews
Tuesday, March 28th
Author Annie Jacobsen talks with Sue Henry about her new book  "Phenomena"

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Distinct pleasure to. To welcome to our show any Jacobson. Author of the book phenomenon and we played a song about telepathy any so that was for you good morning. Good morning how are you. I'm great here in Portland Oregon thank you kicking off the bookstore. You're up at the that the crack of dog out there my goodness. Yes it's a beautiful day and it's still dark. Nice and I wanna talk to first because I know you've written now a lot of different books about a lot of different things. As a a journalist and reporter sometimes people tell you Stephanie thank you so can't be true. Did you have those kinds of moments before you put the book together and what to do your research showed you with that to convince to yeah that's true. Well only at that moment because I read about war weapons US national security and he could and so. I believe touching upon these very. Secret and sacred and Abu area. Settled the book phenomenon was no different except for a little little bit because you're dealing with teens that touch upon supernatural. It's that was one of the aspects and I found most fascinating because it. It's an egalitarian than most people don't want a report on a pair mr. recorder because it's so ridiculed. I interviewed this scientist and that they take themselves and I also interviewed for a skeptic. So that's able to kind of I know the story right down the middle years it's been going on ten for the advent of the CIA. And then let the reader decide what they can get back to what his candidacy. You know any people have such varying opinions where we live about the CIA. A lot of people. Just even question is there. How how they were found at what they really do and and their funding stream or what what bowel their role. In what you researched. Well you know a lot of victory church came from. The original idea of the county which I think it made parents if there's so much stigma attached to it because. And but not these were dealing with difficult it is to ridiculed with all had good reason. But we eat the Americans and I found myself from the national archive records got half of the document. But not these it was still called dot com and Rampage that would Himmler. He's those science department eat your resurgence ESP mapped out and astrology. Forget kinesis. And then the Soviets gone the other path of the actual document and such it's a battle. So I think arms race. And then he and I AD job is to stay that the intelligence has so. Hope people look when you look he's got a picture there as this C had a real reason to pursue this because the Soviet torque. What they then went on to do is really pretty remarkable because the purse to. Steps in this arena to do it until pharmacology. Drug speaking to try and in the month. This alleged he looks at psychic functioning from people. We see this all the time even in mainstream media you know take this tell it it's kind of threw. Open up your brain and Simon Aziz these natural thing for the people do take it to stave off this that the other thing. Your research. What is the most validity to mind altering substances and you know that some people look at Ellis. They were looking at least energetic passion specifically. The interest stay lean again with all of the documentation Library of Congress National Archives. Clinton and a collection. That dog in Mexico. This for the money from existed direction odd man. Khatami. That would give them definitely powers so like that divide seen in the future. For the CIA the interest into the intensity I fully confident in the 1950. Down to Mexican insurgent distraught and then that opened the door to many other research programs the public just the launch pad for all of. These scientists. Obviously are are divided over things like this I would imagine quite strident Lee. And who bought into this. Were they ostracize where they ridiculed and they have to keep it on the die own loan so that they would still maintain some kind of credibility. With their fellow scientists. Scientists who work in this area are ridiculed by got a call from the mainstream scientist accused an interesting concept is so. And I think about that in the book in the 1940s there isn't experimental psychologist from Harvard called named Katrina tried Lex. And she came up with the way that these choose categories as the people. Dealing with the subject matter sheep and goats. For the goats are the scientific skeptic the people who find anything in mr. vinik utter nonsense they sheep are there. If you are inclined to look Lilly. To do something to the possibility of things like. You have to be extra sensory perception and like a Kenny since which is the ability to the matter with them on. And he didn't interest statistics say that that sort of division goes back to the forty. Yeah. That the day the most recent Gallup poll shows. And we're talking a regular people's culture and the second if if we do 3%. And they great majority. An American. People who eat. They are sheep they believe there. Experience something that would fall into this category at the paranormal this supernatural and 23%. From. Our goats and his utter garbage. In the scientific community. That those were still leading edge is a scientist to say this is garbage and I can't expect the fact that. That phenomenon if you will. It's critical that it actually does not followed scientific method and any logic says that does I think that the deal. The phenomenon exist in the world of hypothesis. Experimentation can not be repeated and therefore he can't the general theory and scientists. That ability it have a very correct position saying this is not. Scientific it is not all of scientific about it. Some of these say individuals. Who may be claimed to have these these kind of abilities these powers. I am do you believe that some of them. We're trying to turn the tables and maybe you pull the wool over the giants of of the government. Are are not do you think because it just seems like a dream come true that you could try to fool the government. It's a great question and it's very important because. Then came world peopled by charlatans and snake oil salesman and factors. Fact the government worked very hard at least you know puffy eyes and look at the program individually so. There's an open process that if they have to go on and it is relatively. Easy when you're talking about speaking attacks. Alleged that the cable eighteen Japan vacated Vatican electronically shielded room and letting them go attack. And saying OK show me what you can do withdrawing let's say or what's in the box and they're called. We've kind of you know cardboard box in front of them fictional militant high and they say he's their hand and there electronically shield as they can't getting information from the outside. And it was back in the seventies it's not like people itself. So. They were eating it while the drivers. That they were left greens. We're individuals who were fiercely talented Indies area. Number of my envy people that are now there's sixty capacity. I don't think the government that was you know. Luke stood by any of these people I think really the issue is gonna try to delineate this notebook is. What happened what went successful what was an abysmal failure. Of what did you really mean to this bigger question of like. What is this alleged power because everybody knows somebody who hasn't whether it's intuition and you know or lack presentation. That said give them ideas that sheep that could be part of the population that they leave they'll want to believe that there's really something. To this ideology. Let's talk just a little bit about Yuri gallery because I was a kid and I honestly I put the spoon on the TV when he said he could bend it with what if we put our minds together. To talk about him a little bit because I did that and I don't remember if it worked I'm sure it did work I would've remembered maybe I was in tap able to do but what what's his role in all of us. So tell her you know was is it real formidable character and I thoroughly enjoyed interviewing him I interviewed him at his home an injury deal. Certainly England. I was amazed by is. Incredible energy means they forced to be reckoned with as he certainly maintained a position that is powers are real you know. Quoted it was made saying that he has never ever said that he would he imagination and at any time any land ever said that it's good to misquote. And demonstrated a remarkable thinks but again you know let the reader decide what I did write a lot about was. Kelly Wallace absolutely and the all after that there's no question about it the document Cilic I think in the nineteen Japanese. And it was interesting fascinating to me the way you withdraw audience was through an Apollo astronauts. Also interviewed at Mitchell Apollo fourteen. Before he died. You know. Fascinated by all of this this world of ESP effect a comedic and he really took a hit before he was ridiculed. He Geller were kind of for ills for one another meaning Mitchell wanted. To believe he wanted the power. And he he looked at Taylor as someone who represented everything that was comparable matter arena. And we think we stand right now and in 2017. And in this kind of research do you believe them three years. Discovery that it is is still active and it is something that the government is is pursuing to the stack. I was under current that it actually is going on today and there are public statement that supports that and also loved the interview that I did with courage. DOD assets. What is. Super interesting is that they he's an entirely new nomenclature hasn't there's new language around all of this whereas. In the seventies it was called remote viewing to try to be statement I did ESP. Could aid program vote if you want for example at the office of naval research. They call it and novelist. Connection. So they're kind of being camped up after the guys that technology and other program called. Advanced perceptual. Competence. And these programs these ESP program has currently booted specifically. After if Iraq some of the soldiers reportedly. Could preach that to where I. I don't that they Italy church got very interest in this and are now. Looking at those soldiers studying them he's being advanced technology brain scanning trying to determine what might be at their ideology. But keep them in this. So called guest and of course it should be the aisle and working with the Arab what you did with information technology it. Trying to enhance that feature in the culture. And I see you have to go but it's been fascinating to have you on the show today any Jacobson with the new book phenomenon good luck with this one is so really cool thanks. Her way.